It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
tinyE: Good call keeping this thread open Ash.
Oh yeah, no problems at all.

We're about to have a goddamn holy war here. XD

Thank god I'm an atheist.
ALLAHU AKBAR!
avatar
oderusurungus1: I know that you quoted it, but did you see the part about power outside of yourself, rather than power OVER yourself? I was in a garden years ago musing about how randomly the weeds grow. I had cleared the bed, laid out a line, planted all this stuff in a perfect row, come back a few days later and its all weedy. To my eyes, the randomness of nature was screwing up what I had done so perfectly.

But I had a lightbulb moment when I realized there was nothing random about where the weeds grew...it's just that I had never considered it. But there's a seed, and heat, and moisture, and potential energy, and some seeds grow and some seeds don't, and I was fascinated looking at this little bed of plants growing every which way, but not randomly. Just because I can't control something, or predict its outcome, doesn't mean that it's random. The grass is growing everywhere, whether I'm around for it or not.

So I look at nature now and say "wow, I don't control ANY of that!" Nature is a power outside of myself, I remind myself that it's there, and that there's nothing I can do about it, but that's ok because I don't want to. I hear a lot of people saying that the steps don't work for them because they don't fit the spiritual criteria. Being a psychological exercise and not a spiritual one (which is something not enough people talk about) you can take out the offending words and replace them with something that works.
I see nature not as a power in and of itself, but rather an emergent consequence of phyical laws, so that approach doesn't work for me. Also, step 2 explicitly says the power must be greater, and later steps reference it using a word that I am not comfortable with in that context.

Also, I think the power to recover from addiction really needs to come from within, though perhaps with the help of supportive friends and family (assuming a non-abusive family, of course; abusive family (possibly including parents and/or spouse) is another issue that needs to be dealt with, perhaps by moving away and going no contact).

Actually, that parenthetical comment made me realize one other issue; if one does accept there being a higher power, there's the idea that said power could, in itself, be an abuser and/or enabler, which is clearly *not* what you want when you are trying to recover. Would you want a family member trying to serve you alcohol when you are trying to recover from alcohol addiction?

avatar
tinyE: Thank god I'm an atheist.
Wait, why are you thanking something that doesn't exist?

(I am also an atheist.)
Post edited March 20, 2019 by dtgreene
avatar
oderusurungus1: also nice on the Bard's Tale reference!
avatar
dtgreene: I am actually playing the remaster of the classic trilogy right now.
The referenced song is sung by the hero and tavern regulars in The Bard's Tale (2004), a completely different game. A game which also has a remaster, but inXile refuses to release it on gog. Instead, we get the final earlier release, with its broken Linux port and Windows version that won't run in wine.

Edit; not really directed at dtgreene:
And, since the mods didn't close the thread in spite of the fact that it should be closed, I may as well throw this in: While I don't agree with Penn & Teller on a lot of things, they did the whole argument about AA and its "12 steps" much better than I can, or want to. Here's a random, excerpt, specifically about the "it doesn't have to be God" excuse; search for your self if you want something more complete (it's from an uncensored Showtime 30+ minute show, in case you're offended by cussing and/or nudity): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjItc3_wHxM

In summary: AA and 12 stops don't work (any better than pretty much anything else). If you like that sort of thing, and you believe it works for you, fine. Just keep it off the gaming boards (and the legal system), OK?
Post edited March 20, 2019 by darktjm
low rated
avatar
tinyE: Good call keeping this thread open Ash.
Oh yeah, no problems at all.

We're about to have a goddamn holy war here. XD

Thank god I'm an atheist.
I hardly think one person commenting on a second person being rude to a third person constitutes holy war. Have you gotten any new blueprints for living from the thread? Each time you post it makes me more hopeful that you will get something out of staying. Have you ever worked the steps? Or an equivalent nonspiritual recovery program? The thing about the condition we share is that we can quit drinking on our own, but our brains are still messed up. You often hear people saying "you don't have a drinking problem anymore, but you still have a thinking problem." Sometimes people call it your stinkin' thinkin'. If you haven't done so, I encourage you to get help! Also, doing the work once isn't enough, there's upkeep involved. After years of untreated alcoholic thinking it can be hard (that's what I ended up doing, going more and more crazy not doing the work.) But there's hope.
Some people really need religion in their lives... otherwise they go crazy.
A doctor a lawyer and a priest are taking a tour of an orphanage.

All off a sudden a huge fire breaks out.

The three of them run for the exit and are about to make their way out when the doctor stops and yells, "No! Think of the children!"

The Lawyer stops and tells, "Fuck the children!"

The Priest stops and says, "Do we have time?"
avatar
tinyE: A doctor a lawyer and a priest are taking a tour of an orphanage.

All off a sudden a huge fire breaks out.

The three of them run for the exit and are about to make their way out when the doctor stops and yells, "No! Think of the children!"

The Lawyer stops and tells, "Fuck the children!"

The Priest stops and says, "Do we have time?"
You're so going to hell.

Dammit... I laughed too.
low rated
avatar
dtgreene: nice discussion!
For me to try to rearrange your worldview would be fruitless, but I appreciate the discussion! I think the best thing to say is that 1) I totally get where you're coming from, and 2) Try not to overthink it! The steps belong to whoever is using them. Sometimes if a person is interested, they can totally rearrange the wording for it to make more sense to their worldview. Another user earlier in the thread overcame his compulsions using good old fashioned mind power.

In the end, anyone CAN use the steps. Some of us have to rearrange the wording to make more sense. One last thing: I like the way you see nature as an emergent consequence of physical laws! Those physical laws that bind the universe together! That;s even BIGGER picture. Thanks!
avatar
darktjm: Instead you have arbitrarily enforced "no politics" "no off-topic" and "no cussing" rules that serve nobody.
Is that what the forum rules are now? When did gog become so prissy? This used to be a forum of older adults, one where swearing and mature conversations were never an issue, at least not that I remember.

Are we just supposed to sit around, squeeing at justin bieber or the next farming game?
avatar
BlueMooner: Is that what the forum rules are now? When did gog become so prissy? This used to be a forum of older adults, one where swearing and mature conversations were never an issue, at least not that I remember.

Are we just supposed to sit around, squeeing at justin bieber or the next farming game?
Yeah I got a warning for "derailing a thread" and "calling a user names".
First time I step over the line I get a Blue banging at my door. Not sure I'm liking where this is going.
From what I know, the 12 Step Program is psuedo-religious bullshit that has about the same success rate as simply quitting cold turkey and somehow got itself mandated by the US government for all convicted of alcohol related crimes, because of course it did.
avatar
Braggadar: Yeah I got a warning for "derailing a thread" and "calling a user names".
First time I step over the line I get a Blue banging at my door. Not sure I'm liking where this is going.
I made a post in the "what don't you like in games" thread and it just disappeared. Someone deleted it... poof. So much for mature conversation. Gog's media manager is a jerk and gets fired, so now they're cracking down on the forum?? That's all I can conclude.
avatar
oderusurungus1: Alcoholism is not defined by an inability to stop drinking. That's just a symptom.
Watch this. Everything you think you know about Addiction is wrong